I can appreciate that. Were you ever to read it, I can recommend padding your forehead, because by the time you're done, you'll have facepalmed enough to leave bruises.
I could be wrong, but I get the impression that we're not engaging in the same kind of debate. But maybe folks in the audience would be interested in some historical details.
Hitler came to power on 30 Jan 1933. Within a month, he assumed total control with the Reichstag Fire Decree.
"The Reichstag Fire Decree permitted the regime to arrest and incarcerate political opponents without specific charge, dissolve political organizations, and to suppress publications. It also gave the central government the authority to overrule state and local laws and overthrow state and local governments. The decree was a key step in the establishment of the Nazi dictatorship. Germany became a police state in which citizens enjoyed no guaranteed basic rights and the SS, the elite guard of the Nazi state, wielded increasing authority through its control over the police."
By March Dachau Camp was established.
Trump has been in office four years, lost an election, and was re-elected. The early Nazi timeline was measured in weeks, not years.
While it may be true that a new Nazi regime wouldn't be identical to the old one, calling out something as "nearly Nazi" isn't benign.
Not only does such hyperbole muddy the waters of what actual authoritarianism looks like, making it harder to recognize when it does show up, but people casually equating present-day opponents with Nazis, inflames polarization, deepens paranoia, and increases the risk that political disputes escalate into real violence.
I'd prefer less political violence in everyone's future. The pathway there starts with some minimal agreement on reality. Like maybe it's possible that we are NOT living a repetition of 1933 Germany. Nobody even needs to believe it yet, just entertain the idea.
American citizens and LEGAL immigrants have been sent to foreign prisons without due process. On the road to federalizing DC and how long was the National Guard in CA in violation of the law?
How different is this than the Reichstag fire decree?
We don’t have Auschwitz, but we do have Alligator Alcatraz. Are they the same? Auschwitz 1940’s is an entirely different thing, to be sure.
But even if there were no holocaust, the Nazi’s would still be Nazi’s and Auschwitz 1930’s doesn’t look a lot difference than Alligator Alcatraz today.
I was one of the people that cautioned others about using terms like fascist, Nazi, Hitler, etc for years.
But in the last 6 months, this administration has earned the distinction. You don’t need a Holocaust to be a fascist. You don’t even need it to be a Nazi. And when you look at the ideology, policies and rhetoric of MAGA today, it is now closer to the early Nazi party than to even Mussolini’s fascist party. We have Nazi’s marching in the streets waving SS flags..
ICE just raided a restaurant in California- and trashed it. Another US was also just arrested- no crime has been stated yet.
So regardless of how long it takes Trump to complete his evolution, the parallels are now clear enough. There’s no reason Trump’s timeline needs to match Hitler’s to be of the same kind.
It’s a debatable point but to dismiss the parallels is to miss quite a lot of evidence in plain sight.
One of the problems with trying to have a discussion like this anonymously, typed out over the internet, is that instead of absorbing a disagreement logically and seeing the valid points someone else might be making, we tend to become more entrenched in our own viewpoint. Writing it out can feel like proving it to ourselves. That makes different perspectives harder to understand, not easier.
To combat that in myself, I regularly run my own arguments through AI (it’s never busy) and ask: “Am I overlooking something? What questions am I not asking? Can I steel-man the opposing side?” I also try to ask, “What would it take for me to change my mind?”
From my point of view, your San Francisco Chronicle example actually reinforces my point. Trump is **asking permission**. Hitler didn’t ask. He acted. Big difference.
I’m not much of a Trump supporter — some of his life choices are distasteful — but here’s what it would take for me to conclude we’re living in a fascist state:
Large groups of opposition *citizens* targeted by law enforcement entirely without cause.
Suspension of elections.
Federal takeover of the media.
Suspension of civil rights.
Suspension of the courts.
Suspending congress.
As long as middle-aged women feel empowered to chase down ICE agents and demand to see their clipboards without repercussions, I’m not buying it.
This isn’t a new argument for me but I appreciate your life advice.
Did Trump ask to deport US citizens? Or to put people in a camp without due process? No.
Did he call political dissidents “vermin” and said immigrants are “poisoning the blood of the country”? Yes.
Did he ignore court orders? Yes.
Your definition of fascism is a bit arbitrary.
Why is suspension of elections required?
Suspension of civil rights- see above. Locking up citizens without due process certainly falls in that category.
You don’t have to buy it. But your opinion isn’t really based on an understanding of the political philosophy itself so if you’re understanding of these things is limited to the actions that were taken over the course of months or even years, you’ll easily miss the early warning signs.
But that’s typical for Americans so really don’t know political philosophy.
By the way- did you see the protestors that were tackled and arrested? Doesn’t sound like everyone still feels safe to chase ICE with clipboards.
Resorting to little jabs about my supposed ‘newness’ to the topic and suggesting I don't know political philosophy is a curious tactic, especially since it’s much easier than engaging with what I actually wrote.
If you could refute the argument, you would. You didn’t. Which tells me everything I need to know.
I did though. You’re using an arbitrary timeline to establish some sort of benchmark for fascism. That’s arbitrary. Being a fascist has nothing to do with a timeline of events.
I listed several different events that have happened which show a clear parallel to fascism.
I gave you several specific examples which have been widely reported so you don’t even need to take my world for it.
And I addressed the fact that you’re trying define fascism based on particular actions without addressing the underlying philosophy or rhetoric which is usually something one would do.
So I addressed your premises, offered some of my own, offered and offered specific examples to support my argument.
You, on the other hand, just dismissed the examples I gave you and didn’t even address the philosophy in spite of calling it out.
I won’t read the Rosenberg book, but love that he uses a line from the late great Tom Lehrer for his title.
I can appreciate that. Were you ever to read it, I can recommend padding your forehead, because by the time you're done, you'll have facepalmed enough to leave bruises.
You’re using end-state Naziism as the benchmark to define it. That’s rather convenient.
Look at Nazi Germany in the 30’s and the parallels are far more obvious.
Also, one can be a Nazi without exactly replicating what the Nazi’s did.
I could be wrong, but I get the impression that we're not engaging in the same kind of debate. But maybe folks in the audience would be interested in some historical details.
Hitler came to power on 30 Jan 1933. Within a month, he assumed total control with the Reichstag Fire Decree.
"The Reichstag Fire Decree permitted the regime to arrest and incarcerate political opponents without specific charge, dissolve political organizations, and to suppress publications. It also gave the central government the authority to overrule state and local laws and overthrow state and local governments. The decree was a key step in the establishment of the Nazi dictatorship. Germany became a police state in which citizens enjoyed no guaranteed basic rights and the SS, the elite guard of the Nazi state, wielded increasing authority through its control over the police."
By March Dachau Camp was established.
Trump has been in office four years, lost an election, and was re-elected. The early Nazi timeline was measured in weeks, not years.
Anyone who's interested can follow the full rise of Nazi Germany timeline here: https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/timeline/holocaust
While it may be true that a new Nazi regime wouldn't be identical to the old one, calling out something as "nearly Nazi" isn't benign.
Not only does such hyperbole muddy the waters of what actual authoritarianism looks like, making it harder to recognize when it does show up, but people casually equating present-day opponents with Nazis, inflames polarization, deepens paranoia, and increases the risk that political disputes escalate into real violence.
I'd prefer less political violence in everyone's future. The pathway there starts with some minimal agreement on reality. Like maybe it's possible that we are NOT living a repetition of 1933 Germany. Nobody even needs to believe it yet, just entertain the idea.
American citizens and LEGAL immigrants have been sent to foreign prisons without due process. On the road to federalizing DC and how long was the National Guard in CA in violation of the law?
How different is this than the Reichstag fire decree?
We don’t have Auschwitz, but we do have Alligator Alcatraz. Are they the same? Auschwitz 1940’s is an entirely different thing, to be sure.
But even if there were no holocaust, the Nazi’s would still be Nazi’s and Auschwitz 1930’s doesn’t look a lot difference than Alligator Alcatraz today.
I was one of the people that cautioned others about using terms like fascist, Nazi, Hitler, etc for years.
But in the last 6 months, this administration has earned the distinction. You don’t need a Holocaust to be a fascist. You don’t even need it to be a Nazi. And when you look at the ideology, policies and rhetoric of MAGA today, it is now closer to the early Nazi party than to even Mussolini’s fascist party. We have Nazi’s marching in the streets waving SS flags..
ICE just raided a restaurant in California- and trashed it. Another US was also just arrested- no crime has been stated yet.
So regardless of how long it takes Trump to complete his evolution, the parallels are now clear enough. There’s no reason Trump’s timeline needs to match Hitler’s to be of the same kind.
It’s a debatable point but to dismiss the parallels is to miss quite a lot of evidence in plain sight.
As if on cue…
https://www.sfchronicle.com/politics/article/scotus-immigration-california-20809308.php
Just another step on that road.
One of the problems with trying to have a discussion like this anonymously, typed out over the internet, is that instead of absorbing a disagreement logically and seeing the valid points someone else might be making, we tend to become more entrenched in our own viewpoint. Writing it out can feel like proving it to ourselves. That makes different perspectives harder to understand, not easier.
To combat that in myself, I regularly run my own arguments through AI (it’s never busy) and ask: “Am I overlooking something? What questions am I not asking? Can I steel-man the opposing side?” I also try to ask, “What would it take for me to change my mind?”
From my point of view, your San Francisco Chronicle example actually reinforces my point. Trump is **asking permission**. Hitler didn’t ask. He acted. Big difference.
I’m not much of a Trump supporter — some of his life choices are distasteful — but here’s what it would take for me to conclude we’re living in a fascist state:
Large groups of opposition *citizens* targeted by law enforcement entirely without cause.
Suspension of elections.
Federal takeover of the media.
Suspension of civil rights.
Suspension of the courts.
Suspending congress.
As long as middle-aged women feel empowered to chase down ICE agents and demand to see their clipboards without repercussions, I’m not buying it.
This isn’t a new argument for me but I appreciate your life advice.
Did Trump ask to deport US citizens? Or to put people in a camp without due process? No.
Did he call political dissidents “vermin” and said immigrants are “poisoning the blood of the country”? Yes.
Did he ignore court orders? Yes.
Your definition of fascism is a bit arbitrary.
Why is suspension of elections required?
Suspension of civil rights- see above. Locking up citizens without due process certainly falls in that category.
You don’t have to buy it. But your opinion isn’t really based on an understanding of the political philosophy itself so if you’re understanding of these things is limited to the actions that were taken over the course of months or even years, you’ll easily miss the early warning signs.
But that’s typical for Americans so really don’t know political philosophy.
By the way- did you see the protestors that were tackled and arrested? Doesn’t sound like everyone still feels safe to chase ICE with clipboards.
Resorting to little jabs about my supposed ‘newness’ to the topic and suggesting I don't know political philosophy is a curious tactic, especially since it’s much easier than engaging with what I actually wrote.
If you could refute the argument, you would. You didn’t. Which tells me everything I need to know.
I did though. You’re using an arbitrary timeline to establish some sort of benchmark for fascism. That’s arbitrary. Being a fascist has nothing to do with a timeline of events.
I listed several different events that have happened which show a clear parallel to fascism.
I gave you several specific examples which have been widely reported so you don’t even need to take my world for it.
And I addressed the fact that you’re trying define fascism based on particular actions without addressing the underlying philosophy or rhetoric which is usually something one would do.
So I addressed your premises, offered some of my own, offered and offered specific examples to support my argument.
You, on the other hand, just dismissed the examples I gave you and didn’t even address the philosophy in spite of calling it out.